One message per message is a good system. It doesn't add that much to the download time and the subject titles give you a "table of contents" to your mail.
-ben
Date: 92-04-07 13:44:48 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Re: FidoNet
To: MUBBS Echo
OK, before we all switched over to this thing, we were talking about FidoNet and how it might be used on MUBBS....
I have been told that a new "protocol" for FidoNet is available and widely supported.
It's MUCH simpler than the "old" protocol, and did it in a way that some of the already written modules can be used to do the data transfers!
So you may see FidoNet access anyway, and within a month or so!!
As for InterNet ties, you should see a anouncement soon saying that I have tied this Echo into InterNet!
If you can find a FREE access system to get on InterNet, please do! It will help later when MUBBS has a InterNet mailer available.
The "Echo Archiver" is not fully functional yet, but it should be in a few more days. Then all our messages can be archived and uploaded to AOL for others to see what's been going on. I have a message in a "FORUM" on AOL that gives info on MUBBS, and tells people to write me to get on the list for E-Mail.
I try to get over there once and a while and add in any announcements just to keep it current.
Most people have found there way over to this "Echo", so this is working pretty good!
I have a SEPERATE system set up for this that "wakes" up at night and processes the Echo Mail then shuts off! It's a old Mac 512K upgraded to a Plus and a 20 meg hard drive. It's prefect for this because it really doesn't take much memory to just get/send the mail out. (and besides, it was collecting dust!)
Let me know what you're up to with your BBS system, and how things are going!
Nate...
Date: 92-04-07 16:05:11 EDT
From: GarnerM
Subj: Re: FidoNet
To: MUBBS Echo
You don't now off-hand what the new FidoNet protocol would be called, do you? I know of several methods: FTS-1, FTS-6, and EMSI. Have you heard of another?
Date: 92-04-07 21:08:09 EDT
From: Mattfallon
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
Whats happening with my BBS?
First things.. I dont have a dedicated computer... because I have NO money..
I dont have a dedicated phone line..because my parents wont give me one..
People who call when it is up like the easy to use menu's etc.. but the #1 reason for calling..games! Which there is NONE!
-a
But it is a hell of an experience!
Date: 92-04-08 21:47:25 EDT
From: Fading
Subj: Fido Standards?!
To: MUBBS Echo
Which Protocol are you talking about Nate? There are three as far as I know:
FTS-0001 - The first original protocol, started with Fido.
Uses SeaLink / TeLink / Xmodem.
WaZoo - Started by Opus, two variants, LoTek ( SeaLink /
TeLink / Xmodem ) and ZapZed (Zmodem Variants).
EMSI - By D'Bridge and FrontDoor??? (Unknown)
The first two are well(?) documented in the Fido Technical Standards. EMSI is documented in FSC-0050 something (I think). All Fidonet nodes must be able to support FTS-0001 as a minimal requirement.
---
The Evil Tofu
Date: 92-04-09 00:17:35 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
Something I have to say:
Quick Info About MUBBS Echo:
By sending a message to the "MUBBS Echo" account you understand that it will then be RESENT to the "MUBBS Echo Mail List" which may include MANY systems other than AOL.
If you need to send private mail to me, send to the "N Hawthorn" account NOT "MUBBS Echo".
MUBBS Echo is simply a "Echo" of messages from other people that are interested in the MUBBS BBS Software.
Feel free do discuss whatever, just keep it within the "normal" rules on the system you are calling from (just keep it decent).
To post something into the "Echo" from AOL, just press the "Reply To Author" button that appears to the left of ANY MUBBS Echo message. You can fill in the "Subject" field with whatever your subject is. DOn't press "Reply To All", the "Echo Mailer Daemon" program (on this end) will do this for you.
From other systems, just REPLY as you would any other message.
For now, if you want on or off the Echo, please send E-Mail to N Hawthorn. (Specify that it's the Echo that you want)
-END-
Date: 92-04-09 00:17:43 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
If you have ANY OTHER online service like Compu$erve or something, PLEASE let me know how that system can send/receive InterNet mail, and if there is ANY charge for a USER to do so.
Be SURE of your information!
If you're not sure, please get me a (800) number for their "sales" office so I can ask them.
Through InterNet I can send the MUBBS Echo to other systems like Compuserve and cover a very LARGE base of MUBBS users !(I know they have InterNet, I'm just not sure how they do it on there).
(send your info to "N Hawthorn" if you don't want everyone to see it)
Nate...
Date: 92-04-09 21:38:08 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Answers to some questions
To: MUBBS Echo
Answers to some of the previous posts..
>>You don't now off-hand what the new FidoNet protocol would be called, do you? I know of several methods: FTS-1, FTS-6, and EMSI. Have you heard of another?
Sorry, I was talking about EMSI, it's getting used enough that we can make a EMSI only mailer and just forget the other protocols.
There's someone working on this now, but I don't think he want's to make a announcement just yet.
>>People who call when it is up like the easy to use menu's etc.. but the #1 reason for calling..games! Which there is NONE!
You should do a little more RESEARCH before you say "NONE".
HEY Ken!!! Here's a tester for your new GAME!! You should write "Mattfallon" if you haven't yet...
Also, it would'nt be too hard for you to write your own. There's source to a simple game available (another game besides Ken's). Most games just require INPUT from a user and then PRINT something back to the user. This is ALL handled for you with simple calls like:
send("haha I am printing to your screen]");
This would send "haha I am printing to your screen" to their screen and then send a CRLF (a carrige return is indicated by the ']' bracket).
Give it a try! There's READY TO GO shells available that do all the "module" stuff, you just fill in the rest with what you want.
If you would like "logoff" text printed when people log off, COPY a "sendfile" module and RENAME it to "logoffmsg" (or whatever you want to call it).
Then EDIT the "logoff" TEXT file found in the "bbssupport" folder so that it contains the name "logoffmsg" and a RETURN like this:
logoffmsg
When someone logs off, MUBBS calls any "logoff" modules that are in the list.
The "sendfile" module (named "logoffmsg") will then send out whatever file you have told it to.
You WILL need to READ the "sendfile" instructions to set up the new "sendfile" module.
Nate...
Date: 92-04-11 17:46:27 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Support BBS
To: MUBBS Echo
I would like to have another "offical" MUBBS support BBS....
All you need to have is a BBS and a willingness to answer questions that come up.
You SHOULD be running MUBBS, or are going to real soon.
Your BBS needs to be up 24 hrs, baud speed is not important.
If you get stuck on a question, you can always write here and get the answer for a user!
Let me know....
Nate...
Date: 92-04-11 19:38:41 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Name List is gone!
To: MUBBS Echo
Well, I hope it's gone...
This message is the test.
You should no longer see the "To: name, name, name, name" stuff showing all the names on the mailing list here.
This will help keep the messages more readable.
I will let you know how many people are on the list every once and a while (I may make it a automatic once a month post from the "Echo Daemon"!)
Right now there are 22 people who are receiving the Echo on AOL.
I will be working on the "Subject:" in a while, so that it reads correctly. Then it's InterNet time!
Nate...
Date: 92-04-11 19:38:50 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Front End...
To: MUBBS Echo
I am now working with another programmer on a "Front End" for MUBBS.
We are working on the "basic protocol" now, and should have something that's real SIMPLE soon.
I'm open for suggestions and COMMENTS on things you DON'T like about other "Front End" type systems.
Nate...
Date: 92-04-12 12:12:09 EDT
From: Fading
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
How about making it work with Apple Events? That way we can plug in other BBS systems, if we develope a standard bbs apple events suite.
Date: 92-04-12 20:26:09 EDT
From: JEhrlich
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
I think the front end should have...
A true Mac interface (like FirstClass) and background file transfer if possible (again, like FC! I like FC, what can I say? :). I personally think the fully Mac like interface is nicer than the custom-PICT interface of NovaLink Pro, which more resembles HyperCard. (I like NLP as well, I dunno...)
The front end must support everything the command line supports. Threaded message bases and such.
jason
Date: 92-04-13 04:51:33 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Comparisons
To: MUBBS Echo
If you are going to compare what MUBBS *will* have for a front end, use AOL as a comparison!
I appreciate the comments, and we are going to make the front "Mac Like", what else would it look like?
I like AOL's version, they did it right.
First Class's interface does NOT impress me at all. It's very BASIC and quite SIMPLE to implement.
In my opinion, they really didn't do their homework before charging over $200 for it.
The downloading while looking around stuff is nice, that's one thing I will give them. But is it worth $200 ?
I really don't need to get into FirstClass against MUBBS, I already have seen what Hermes Sysops want. They want MUBBS to be EXACTLY like Hermes and then want MORE!
Want I say to FirstClass and Hermes (a WWIV freeware clone port) sysops is:
"It's too bad that FirstClass & Hermes is so hard for the user to use via TTY, I wish it looked more like MUBBS, I have IBM and Commodore callers. Can they make theirs look more like MUBBS?"
"Oh... also, I want to write my own "door" programs for it, however I looked at the interface and it's a big job. Too bad it's not more like MUBBS."
"I would like to do (whatever) with my BBS program, can FirstClass or Hermes do this? What?? NO??... Gee, MUBBS is supported by LOTS of programmers, I'm sure I can get one of them to make me a special module to do this for a very reasonable price. I also wouldn't have to wait for a YEAR for a new revision to get it either. Can't you guys make your program more like MUBBS?"
If MUBBS ever even looked even a LITTLE like Hermes I would delete it!
If you can see into the future, you know the future of Mac BBS's is MUBBS.
Nate...
Date: 92-04-13 19:28:30 EDT
From: Scott001
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
I would be willing to run an 'official mubbs support bbs'.
I program modules, and my boards up 24 hours.
Its in Natick, MA.
Its (508)655-8927.
Right now im running a USR Courier HST 9600.
Im planning on getting a Dual Standard soon (1-2 months) so I will be able to support High speeders.
I already have a mubbs message area, and can make MUBBS its own file area easily.....
Let me know what I have to do to become official ...
(A message on my start screen... or whatever)....
Date: 92-04-15 05:12:50 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: GEnie and MUBBS
To: MUBBS Echo
I was on GEnie (with a friends account) just to see if they can handle InterNet mail (and they don't yet, and they want to CHARGE for it too I think), and found a MUBBS area there.
Let me tell you I am NOT impressed with GEnie one single bit, it was SLOW, hard to use, and just a downright waste of time! The DELAYS going from menu to menu were ATROCIOUS! and all the while the ONLINE timer was running $$ !!
Here's a clip of a nice message from that section:
(sorry it doesn't quite fit into AOL screen properly, it's just a capture/paste job)
Category 6, Topic 10
Message 1 Mon Jan 20, 1992
C.JUAREZ [GLADNICK] at 18:34 CST
A short introduction:
My name is William Gladnick. I started the first discussion of Hermes on
GEnie way back when it was in its early beta stages and which later grew into a
category of its own, but for reasons I won't delve into has since been
dissolved. I have been running Hermes BBS software on my own BBS since then.
I am now using MUBBS BBS software for the following reasons:
<RETURN>, <S>croll, <Q>uit ?
1) MUBBS is free and will stay that way.
2) The THINK C source code for MUBBS is included with MUBBS so you can tailor
the BBS to your liking. The source code for future modules will be
available also. If you write a module(s), we ask that you share your
source code so that others may write even better modules.
3) MUBBS is COMPLETELY configurable by the sysop.
4) MUBBS is modular; Many different versions of a module can be written and the
sysop can pick which one he likes and call it at any time he chooses. Also,
the sysop can set up his BBS to call a module or series of modules in what-
ever sequence he/she chooses.
5) You can get help for MUBBS on the support BBS 24 hours a day (805)259-6407.
6) I wrote my first module for MUBBS (a game) in 20 minutes, installed it
and it worked the first time around. I am not a C programmer. It is just
easy to do. I may even stop using my Pascal compiler <grin>.
7) With each programmer responsible for 15 to 32k of code, new and better
modules are showing up every day.
8) The minimum hardware configuration is a Mac Plus with 1 meg of RAM.
9) MUBBS is a Multi User BBS. Up to 32 phone lines can be supported.
10)MUBBS frontends are being worked on for both Macs and IBM's and possibly
other computers.
So if you are thinking about setting up a BBS up on your Mac, take a look at MUBBS.
Date: 92-04-15 05:39:09 EDT
From: Ken McKitt
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
File: tickle doc.cpt (16435 bytes)
Hello
I just found a really, well new and different program. It's System 7 dependent and operates in the background. It's called "Tickle" and basically it does file conversions. Compression and decompression included. Tickle also comes with a TCL script interpreter and you can add you own commands via code resources!
Sounds kinda like MUBBS.
I think this would make a VERY nice addition to MUBBS. However it would HAVE to support System 7 and AppleEvents. :-) Nate knows I've been asking for this for some time.
I've included to "docs" which are in MS Word format. The whole package comes to be 1.2 meg ccompacted! So I can get it one a 1.4 meg floppy. Let me know if anybody wants a copy.
later
Ken
Date: 92-04-15 05:39:41 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: MUBBS Echo and InterNet!!
To: MUBBS Echo
The Echo is now available via InterNet E-Mail, here's the text I posted.
Please post this on any BBS's, OnLine Services, or anywhere you think it might help out MUBBS!
(it's formated for 75-80 columns, just cut and paste into whatever)
For those of you who are interested in MUBBS, the "Multi User BBS"
for the Macintosh (it's FreeWare, it's Modular and it's GREAT!):
There is a E-Mail "Echo" going on via InterNet that's also tied
into America OnLine ! Soon to be tied into other online systems and
eventually MUBBS itsself!
Many people are talking about what's happening with MUBBS and where
it may be going. Support is available from MANY people via the Echo!
If you would like to receive the MUBBS Echo, send ANY message to:
mubbs!request@quake.sylmar.ca.us
(or some mailers may want to see a %)
mubbs%request@quake.sylmar.ca.us
This will automaticly put you on the list!
(you send ANY message, content does not matter, it reads just your
"Reply to:" address and uses it to make up the list)
QUICK SUMMARY:
mubbs!request@quake.sylmar.ca.us << to put yourself on the list
mubbs!cancel@quake.sylmar.ca.us << to remove yourself from the list
mubbs!submit@quake.sylmar.ca.us << to send something to the whole Echo
ssbbs!nateh@quake.sylmar.ca.us << This is a real human, if you want one
Nate...
Date: 92-04-15 20:58:22 EDT
From: Biffnix
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
Okay, I'm looking for help on the Supra Fax/Modem 9600 v.32bis v.42bis modem string! I've been futzing around with it for weeks now, and I've ALMOST got stuff figured out. The only problem I have now is that when a user tried to download via Zmodem, MUBBS sends the first block, then the remote user gets a "garbled block" error message, and Zmodem locks up, eventually timing out. Nate sez that I need to "pass xon/xoff" but I'm not sure what that means. I've disabled flow control (which solved another problem I had with MUBBS disconnecting people for no reason) and the Supra reference manual sez that using the &K0 switch Disables flow control. But the &K4 switch ENABLES xon/xoff flow control. I tried that, but no dice. The &K5 switch enables 'transparent' software flow control, whatever that means. Still didn't work. I'm getting a mite peeved that I can't figure this out on my own. Anyone else out there with a new Supra 9600 v32bis v42bis modem and has it working? Help!
Joe Griego
aka Biffnix
Date: 92-04-15 22:39:30 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Support BBS
To: MUBBS Echo
Scott,
You're a "Official MUBBS Support BBS" !!
(that ws easy wasn't it??)
You can display "MUBBS Support" on it somewhere if you want. As you know, I'm really casual about all this.
I will add your BBS number to my list here and pass it around when I leave messages.
One question, how would you like it listed (West Coast, East Coast, Egypt, Latin America....)? Here's what I have now:
Space Sciences BBS (805) 259-6407 (14,400) West Coast
Nexus 6 (504) 522-6607 (38,400) Central USA
PAMUG (215) 635-0664 (14,400) East Coast
If there was anyone else wanting to be a Support BBS out there, it wouldn't hurt to have a couple more... You just need to be willing to answer some questions from people, and have some knowledge about MUBBS.
Nate...
Date: 92-04-16 09:09:23 EDT
From: NoamF
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
Does anyone out there use a USR HST modem with MUBBS? If so, please leave me a msg as I want to ask some questions
- NoamF
(Remember: Don't reply to author, start a new msg the old fashioned way...throught the mail menu.)
Date: 92-04-16 14:45:46 EDT
From: CicadaSoft
Subj: Conference Rooms are Coming
To: MUBBS Echo
Greetings interested MUBBS parties,
This is an informal announcement that a conferencing or "chat" module for MUBBS is currently in alpha testing.
Current Alpha Features are:
- Multiple "rooms" (like CB Channels on C$erve) for users to chat in
- Unique room descriptions that the sysop can change at will
- Users can change their name or handle while in the conferening module
Things to come:
- A full range of chat "actions"
(ie. ".laugh" == Bozo is laughing his fool head off!)
- Private Rooms by invitation only
- Topic Rooms moderated by a user
- Paging of other users
- Selective "hushing" of annoying users
and anything else you can think of...
If you have a particular need or desire for a chat module, send your feature
requests to "CicadaSoft" here on AOL.
Conference Rooms 1.0 is scheduled to be released in early June by Cicada Software. It will be a shareware product with a $20 registration fee.
---------------
ben sharpe
Cicada Software
Date: 92-04-16 19:01:46 EDT
From: Fading
Subj: Tickle
To: MUBBS Echo
I've just found this package called tickle, it's supposed to be a Mac port of TCL (whatever that is). Tickle is able to take files and compress them (with unix compress), decompress, binhex, unbinhex, untar, unstuffit, move, copy, delete and I -think- you can do this by sending it Apple Events!
Just an interesting tidbit ...
---
The Evil Tofu
Date: 92-04-16 20:32:52 EDT
From: Scott001
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
Subj: Support BBS
One question, how would you like it listed (West Coast, East Coast, Egypt, Latin America....)? Here's what I have now:
Space Sciences BBS (805) 259-6407 (14,400) West Coast
Nexus 6 (504) 522-6607 (38,400) Central USA
PAMUG (215) 635-0664 (14,400) East Coast
OK, please list me as.....
HMM BBS (508) 655-8927 (9600HST) East Coast
NOTE: I will be getting a USR Dual Standard in about a month, so you can up the speed to like 14,400/HST
Ok?
Ill let ya know when I get the new modem.
Thanks.
Date: 92-04-17 04:26:27 EDT
From: Ken McKitt
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
Nate
MUBBS Mailer is now an Alpha version. Yeah!
That means of course I think it's mostly ready to go. Now I need a ZModem Receive Module. I would like to know if you have writing of this module on your "To Do" list or if I should go ahead and tackle it myslef?
Also it means it's time to SERIOUSLY think about a "Maint" module, a file compresion module, a FidoNet message bundler, etc.
Does it ever end? :-)
I'm thinking of biting the bullet and going on with a "Zip" module at this point.
later
Ken
Date: 92-04-18 02:18:45 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
>>the Supra reference manual sez that using the &K0 switch Disables flow control.
Disables WHAT flow, hardware or Xon Xoff ?
But the &K4 switch ENABLES xon/xoff flow control. I tried that, but no dice.
What you need to do is contact the company if you can, you want:
Xon and Xoff PASSED THROUGH; in other words if the calling person sends a control-S (Xoff) then the modem PASSES it to the BBS and vice versa (BBS sending a Xoff).
THE PORT SPEED MUST CHANGE WITH THE CONNECT SPEED: If someone logs in at 1200 the port speed should be 1200.
We currenty do not support Hardware Handshaking becuase of complications.
Nate...
Date: 92-04-18 02:19:20 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Zterm Problems
To: MUBBS Echo
Here's some text I posted on my BBS about Zterm .9 and MUBBS.
You can post it to your BBS if you want, I just got tired of people saying that the downloads don't work (it would be nice for once having someone tell me they were trying to UPLOAD and had some sort of problems, but it always seems that the people that have problems are the ones that have BARELY figured out how to download or have NEVER uploaded anything ever!)
(it's formated for 80 columns, so copy/paste)
--------------------------------------
I have had some people claim the BBS doesn't work with Zterm .9, so
I ran some tests.
First, Zterm .9 is a NEW RELEASE!! If you think a new program that some
guy writes is a "STANDARD" and that if it doesn't work, it MUST be the
BBS program;
REMEMBER: the BBS program has been around MUCH longer than Zterm .9 has,
so don't tell me that the BBS has a problem!!
I have tested the BBS with Zterm .85 (notice I say .85!!) and MANY other
"SOLID" programs that have been around for quite a while!!
If anything has a problem, you better beleive its Zterm .9, not the BBS!!
System 7, Think C 5.0, and Zterm .9 are PROOF that you can't go around
being STUPID and think that just because it's the "latest and greatest"
that it works right!!!
I won't use System 7 till it's 7.2, Think 5 till it's 5.4 and Zterm .9
till it's 8 months OLD and all the bugs are worked out.
I won't buy a NEW car for the same reason... Get smart!! Use your brains!
If you feel INSULTED because of what I am saying, look at it from MY POINT
OF VIEW: I am TOTALLY "INSULTED" because all of these problems WASTE MY
TIME, and you do not have any right to WASTE MY TIME because you are using
a NEW peice of UNTESTED (or not tested long enough), BUGGY software!
If you are running System 7 and think that just because Apple released it
it must be OK, then you are NAIVE!! Apple has changed into a big
CORPORATION and think that YOU make a good (and free) TEST SITE!!
System 7 causes all kinds of problems, it's costing programmers and MANY
companies MILLIONS of DOLLARS because Apple released it too soon (trying
to beat DOS V5.0, which in itself shows you how STUPID Apple has become,
they beat DOS V20.5 many years ago).
Here's what I did, if you do this EXACTLY and cannot get the files,
there's something wrong on your end. I had NO PROBLEMS!
Running a Mac Fx, with system 6.0.7 :
I used a copy of Zterm .9 right from the ARCHIVE, NO CHANGES!!....
Using a 2400 baud modem, set to 2400 baud, called 259-6407.
I picked "Cd rom" from the main menu, selected the file:
"Desert Storm (MacPaint).cpt" 6K
And pressed "D" to download it, it started up automaticly (using Zmodem).
Ran "DDExpand" and decompressed the file, then again looked at the nice
picture in MacDraw.
NOTICE THAT I DOWNLOADED FILES WITH .dd or .cpt or whatever, THEY MUST BE
COMPRESSED FILES!!! (for now, this will be fixed later)....
So there it is, Zterm . 9 seems to work fine for me, if you have problems
contact Zterm central, don't bother me, I have better things to do than
support someone else's software.
Nate...
Date: 92-04-18 02:32:13 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Numbers
To: MUBBS Echo
I just checked on AOL, and if downloads tell you anything:
MUBBS V.5 downloads: 173 << first "release"
MUBBS V1.1 downloads: 94 << came out about 3 months later
Hermes V1.8 downloads: 195 << around for a while
Hermes V1.9 downloads: 173 << came out almost a year later?
Not bad considering that MUBBS hasn't been around that long!
It's obvious that people are using MUBBS, I think mostly for "private" type BBS's. I think the customization is attracting people that want a particular type of BBS, without certian "features" that they don't want.
I think we are doing very well!
Nate...
Date: 92-04-18 15:57:50 EDT
From: CicadaSoft
Subj: RE: System 7
To: MUBBS Echo
Well, I'm probably opening a whole can o' worms, but I am a developer at Apple (3 1/2 years running) and I strongly disagree with the following.
-----
If you are running System 7 and think that just because Apple released it
it must be OK, then you are NAIVE!! Apple has changed into a big
CORPORATION and think that YOU make a good (and free) TEST SITE!!
System 7 causes all kinds of problems, it's costing programmers and MANY
companies MILLIONS of DOLLARS because Apple released it too soon (trying
to beat DOS V5.0, which in itself shows you how STUPID Apple has become,
they beat DOS V20.5 many years ago).
-----
I agree that new versions have new bugs. We grow accustomed to the old bugs and feel a bit frustrated when new ones come along. It happens all the time, but I for one am willing to pay the price of experiencing the new bugs for better environments or tools. Unless it hinders my productivity.
I recently had to switch to C++ development using MacApp 3.0 from Object Pascal and MacApp 2.0.9. I dreaded the shift because Think Pascal 4.0 offered a really fast development environment. Whereas MPW (the only C++ on the Mac right now) is slow and cumbersome for me. **But**, I do really enjoy all the bug fixes in MacApp 3.0 and its new features. More than I dislike the new bugs that it has over MacApp 2.0.9.
As far as System 7 goes... well it was the *only* operating system that went through a formal testing process within Apple - and that was for a year. Why do you think we progressed to System 6.0.8 so quickly from 6.0? The user was doing the testing. Sure, System 7 is not without its problems - but it's quite a bit more complex than System 6 - with AppleEvents, Edition Manager, FileSharing, the needed but undocumented Layer manager, a new Sound manager, better System Folder architecture, Process Manager, Help Manager, PPC Toolbox, Alias Manager, and an overall better user experience. All these things are *new* to System 7. That's a hell of a lot of work from System 6. Sure some of the stuff they wanted to do didn't make it... (namely the new print architecture), but hey they're only human just like us. I have yet to work with a team on a system where the project plan didn't slide. When you have to deliver on a deadline some things just don't make it. Fortunately, they made it much easier to release bug fixes for System 7. (The Tune Ups) Remember the day's of the installer where it had to replace your whole system just to upgrade to 6.0.5?
I know... I know... The snafu with Tune Up 1.1 and the printing bug. Well, you're right that was a stupid mistake that said somebody over at SCM (Software Control Management) wasn't doing their job. But I think the world will get over it. I would probably be more upset if I had a StyleWriter that wouldn't print. But I don't. :) At least Tune Up 1.1.1 was available rather quickly. I think that is a testament to the fact that there is an organization within Apple that is trying to make the System more stable.
My personal opinion based on a friendship with various managers and engineers of the teams that developed the above pieces of the new system is that Apple was not trying to beat DOS 5.0. I really don't think that releases of DOS are driving Apple to release new versions of MacOS. That's comparing apples and oranges, and I believe that Apple's vision is a little bigger than that. Apple had promised a market a new operating system and there was pressure to deliver. Especially since most of the new hardware Apple has won't even run System 6. If you can't release new machines then you can't sell them and that's what Apple's in the business of doing. From a developer's point of view... I love System 7. We are using it at work to develop some really interesting Peer-To-Peer based "GroupWare" and Client-Server based reporting applications that we just couldn't do with System 6.
I also don't buy the first model year of a new car because of the bugs it might have in the design, buy I might buy the second model year. I wouldn't use System 7 when it was in beta testing, but I love the release version. All it boils down to is personal preference and opinion. And opinions are like assholes... everybody's got one and they all stink. (as my dad used to say) If I waited until all the bugs were gone from my development environment I couldn't live on the bleeding edge of technology where I like to stay which in turn keeps me marketable.
Well, I'll get down off my soapbox for now. :) I just felt compelled to speak and now I'm over it.
- ben
Date: 92-04-19 05:13:24 EDT
From: Ken McKitt
Subj: Wide Beta testing
To: MUBBS Echo
I'm looking for more beta testers for my game "Empire". This is the first "real" game for MUBBS. Well it's over 32K and a multi-segment code resource anyway.
It's a multi-line, multi-player space combat and conquest game.
If you're interested download the attached file and go for it.
Please send me falshmail if youdo decide to test.
The shareware release will be $20.00. Beta-testers who find good, bugs and help me out WILL get a free copy.
Nate, you do have a point but will MUBBS work with System 7.2 when it is released if something weird is crashing it in 7.0? :)
I think that AppleEvents should be used to communicate between various modules of a bbs application though. what do you think?
---
The Evil Tofu
Date: 92-04-19 14:10:33 EDT
From: ISAN Barry
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
Ken McKitt, I'm interested in testing your game, however was unable to download attached file, as no file was attached.
Please email here directly if no other recourse.
ISAN Barry
Wizard Computer Graphics, PA
Mubbs BBS 215-678-4771 for other east coast Mubbs users.
Date: 92-04-19 14:35:00 EDT
From: DA Ref
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
Ken,
I am willing to test out your game..
(unfortunately..nothing was passed on..)
-a
(this is from MattFallon BTW)
Date: 92-04-22 21:29:59 EDT
From: IceDragon3
Subj: Re: AppleEvents
To: MUBBS Echo
>>I think that AppleEvents should be used to communicate between various modules of a bbs application though. what do you think?
Used for What Purpose? It's a nice thought, and maybe a good idea, but how would you use them?
--Ice The Third Dragon
Date: 92-04-24 20:22:02 EDT
From: Ken McKitt
Subj: Re: Via Mailer Daemon
To: MUBBS Echo
One way AppleEvents would be good is to have MUBBS hooked up to one of those super-awesome color laser printers.
That way a user could log on, upload a file and trigger an ApplEvent and have Illustrator 3 or something print out the file to the color laser printer, for later delivery back to the user.
It would also allow MUBBS to access a big database via some of the more expensive database programs.
Realistically AppleEvents, System 7 and such would only be userful on a really "fast" system like one of the new Quadra's. There would be a lot of overhead involved anything less would tend to bog down.
and run slow.
Date: 92-04-25 00:30:23 EDT
From: Fading
Subj: Apple Events
To: MUBBS Echo
You could have a log-in module that sends AEs to a user database to verify the user's stats/password. You could send AEs to a messages database to retrieve/store messages. All that is needed is an AE suite for BBS systems. Mutlti-Line and Multi-Mac support would be easy. We could mix Users logged in from modems and Users logged in from an AppleTalk Network. Then you could choose which msg server, user server you want. The log in module should be able to pass control to an external module via AEs. And we could test out each module seperately, perhaps using hypercard as a test bed, since hypercard can send/receive apple events.
The main disadvantage now is the lack of an AE suite for BBS systems and the need for System 7. :)
Date: 92-04-25 07:59:03 EDT
From: N Hawthorn
Subj: Answers...
To: MUBBS Echo
>>If you're interested download the attached file and go for it.
You can't send files via the Echo Mailer, sorry....
>>I know... I know... The snafu with Tune Up 1.1 and the printing bug...
(the message to my users on my BBS about problems)
And that's only one example. Apple really should get with it and DOWNLOAD some of this SHAREWARE stuff and test it under system 7 BEFORE they released it!
The "compatibility tester" program was LACKING at best!! Most of the programs it had listed were commercial (what else?) because Apple didin't want to spend it's time on "shareware" stuff.
I am a user OUT HERE, I don't work inside Apple, so I KNOW what it's like from this point of view!
>>Nate, you do have a point but will MUBBS work with System 7.2 when it is released if something weird is crashing it in 7.0? :)
I ALWAYS test MUBBS under System 7 before release. That doesn't mean that I have to use System 7 all the time!
>>AppleEvents should be used to communicate between various modules....
Well, no.... We communicate with them just fine now. You can pass them just about anything now, and very FAST! However, passing MUBBS something via AppleEvents and then that "message" would contain the module name to pass the data to might be in order.
It might just make things a big mess and screw up all the time though....
-----------------------------
30 users on AOL are currently receiving the Echo
10 users on InterNet are currently receiving the Echo
Nate..
Date: 92-04-25 20:12:08 EDT
From: IceDragon3
Subj: Re: How 'Bout...
To: MUBBS Echo
Well, ya know, we could define our own BBS ApplEvents.
